Berita Harian Interview with Perak State Mufti Datuk Seri Harussani Zakaria

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The following is a Q&A with the Perak State Mufti, Datuk Seri Harussani Zakaria, published by Berita Harian, on Sunday, June 18, 2006. The original text is in this color, while myAsylum's translation into English is in this color. The original article can be found here (in Bahasa Malaysia).

Note: Some terms have been left in Arabic as originally used by the Mufti in the interview. A glossary of terms can be found at the end of the post. (Interview in the full post)

APAKAH maksud sebenar fahaman liberalisme dan pluralisme agama yang kini dikatakan mula mempengaruhi umat Islam.
WHAT is the real meaning of liberalism and religious pluralism that is said to be influencing Muslims.
Liberalisme iaitu kebebasan individu tanpa had ialah fahaman yang timbul pada kurun ke-16 dan 17 ketika zaman kebangkitan atau Renaissance iaitu golongan intelektual menyerang pentadbiran gereja.
Liberalism, that is, individual freedom without limits, is an ideoloy that surfaced in the 16th and 17th centuries, during the Renaissance, [explained as] the intellectuals rising against the church administrators.

Ketika itu agama Kristian dikawal Roman Katolik, jadi orang awam tidak boleh tafsir Kitab Injil, kecuali pihak gereja. Mereka yang menentang pihak gereja akan diseksa seperti dijemur di tengah jalan, dibakar hidup-hidup dan dikurung dalam kotak besi.
At that time Christianity was exclusive to the Roman Catholics, and therefore the lay person could not translate/understand the Bible, except through the Church. Those that went against the church were tortured, “exposure (under the sun) in the middle of the road” [literal translation], burned alive, and imprisoned in metal boxes.

Maka, timbul kumpulan dan pendapat mengatakan Kitab Injil itu harus ditafsir semula dan daripada idea itu timbul pelbagai mazhab dalam agama itu seperti Protestan, Anglikan dan berpuluh-puluh lain lagi.
So there arose a group and opinions that voiced the need for the Bible to be revised/re-translated, and from there emerged several Christian sects, such as the Protestants, Anglicans, and many many others.

Pendapat mazhab ini jauh berbeza antara satu sama lain sehingga muncul kenyataan ‘kebenaran itu tidak selamanya benar dan harus dinilai semula’. Dari situ, timbul fahaman iaitu Kitab Injil itu sendiri diturunkan dalam bahasa tuhan perlu diterjemahkan ke bahasa yang boleh difahami orang lain.
The opinions of these sects were very different from one another, to the point that a statement was issued, saying “truth is not everlasting, and therefore needs to be reassessed”. From there arose an opinion saying that the Bible [which] was revealed in the language of God and so must be translated into a language that others can understand.

Tindakan itu dengan sendirinya menjadikan kitab itu sebagai unsur manusiawi iaitu masing-masing memahami kitab itu dengan bahasa sendiri. Bila ini berlaku, mereka ada hak mengubah atau mengolahnya bila dirasakan (kandungannya) tidak lagi relevan (dengan keadaan semasa).
This action therefore made the Bible a human effort, that is, every group understanding the Bible in their own language. Once this occurred, they then had a right to change or revise it when it was felt that the contents were no longer relevant (with current circumstances).

Dari situ, timbul pula pendapat dipelopori John Hick bahawa semua agama itu boleh diterima kerana tujuannya satu cuma jalannya berlainan, maka lahirlah pluralisme.
From there arose an opinion promoted by John Hick, stating that all religions are acceptable because although the paths were different, the destination was the same – and thus pluralism was born.

Ia kemudian dijadikan senjata oleh orientalis atau penjajah Barat untuk menyerang Islam kerana serangan lebih 200 tahun dengan senjata nyata tidak dapat menundukkan orang Islam. Walaupun, pada kurun ke 15 dan 16, banyak negara Islam dapat dijajah, mereka tidak dapat menguasai hati orang Islam.
This was then used as a weapon by the orientalist, or Western colonialists, to attack Islam, since weaponary attacks for 200 years obviously could not defeat the Muslims. Although in the 15th and 16th centuries many Islamic countries were colonized, they could not colonize the hearts of the Muslims.

Jadi timbul fikiran bahawa serangan fizikal tidak memberi kesan kepada orang Islam, tetapi menyerang Islam menerusi fikiran maka lahirlah pejuang Kristian yang menghabiskan banyak masa pergi ke negara Islam khususnya di Timur Tengah untuk mengkaji sumber Islam dan mencari kelemahan yang boleh diserang.
So, a school of thought stating that while physical attacks weren’t effective, attacking the Muslim mind could be, giving rise to Christian missionaries that spent a lot of time in Islamic countries, particularly in the Middle East, to study Islamic materials to find weaknesses that could be attacked.

Mereka kemudian menubuhkan pengajian Islam di universiti di Eropah dan orang Islam melanjutkan pelajaran peringkat sarjana dan kedoktoran mendapat pendidikan daripada tenaga pengajar orientalis sehingga menimbulkan ‘racun’ dalam pemikiran pelajar Islam itu.
They then set up Islamic Studies in European Universities, and Muslims who furthered their education and graduated at Masters and Doctorate levels received their education from orientalist teachers until their minds were poisoned.

Sejak bila pemikiran liberalisme dan pluralisme agama ini mula bertapak di negara ini.
Since when has liberalism and religious pluralism start to take root in this country
Pemikiran ini mula meresap ke golongan intelektual dan profesional Islam sejak beberapa tahun lalu dan mula menunjukkan kelantangannya sejak akhir-akhir ini, apabila menyeru supaya apa yang berlaku kepada Kitab Injil dilakukan terhadap al-Quran dengan kenyataan meminta al-Quran diolah semula.
These schools of thought started be creep into the Muslim intellectual and professional community several years ago, and started to get vocal recently, when calls to revise the Quran were made, similar to what has been done to the Bible.

Firman Allah jelas menyatakan al-Quran itu diterima terus oleh Rasulullah daripada Allah yang bermaksud ia ayat Tuhan yang tidak boleh diolah.
God’s revelation clearly states that the Quran was revealed directly to His Messenger, meaning that it is God’s word which cannot be revised.

Mereka lupa bahawa sejak al-Quran diturunkan, jutaan umat Islam menghafaznya dalam bahasanya yang asal dan tiada sesiapa boleh menambah atau mengurangkan walau satu huruf dalam kitab suci itu. Mereka menuduh pula al-Quran sebagai mushaf Quraisy, tetapi berdasarkan sejarah kita sendiri tahu bahawa orang yang menjadi jurutulis al-Quran terdiri daripada pelbagai keturunan termasuk dari Afrika.
They forget that since the Quran was revealed, millions of Muslims have memorized it in its original language and no one can add or remove even one alphabet in this holy book. They accuse the Quran as the mushaf of the Quraish, but from history we know that the Quranic scribes were of various nationalities, including from Africa.

Bolehkah kita kenal pasti penganut fahaman ini di Malaysia.
Can we identify the followers of this view in Malaysia.
Di Malaysia, golongan ini tidak membuat pengisytiharan terbuka mengenai kedudukan mereka berbanding di tempat lain seperti di Indonesia. Di negara ini, mereka hanya meledakkan idea fahaman itu menyatakan al-Quran mesti diolah semula, ayat berkaitan sistem faraid serta amalan poligami tidak relevan lagi serta kedudukan lelaki sebagai ‘superior’ dalam rumah tangga juga sudah tidak relevan.
In Malaysia, these people have not openly declared their position, compared to other places, like in Indonesia. In this country, they merely promote the group’s philosophy stating that the Quran must be revised, the verses pertaining to the system of Faraidh, plus the practice of polygamy, are no longer relevant, and that the position of the male as superior in the household, too, are no longer relevant.

Ia mungkin tidak lagi relevan dalam masyarakat Barat kerana Kitab injil itu mereka karang sendiri. Sebenarnya, Tuhan maha bijaksana dengan menciptakan hukum untuk hambanya.
Maybe irrelevant in Western society because the Bible was re-written by them. In truth, God is all knowing, creating laws for His servants.

Walaupun sekarang zaman atom, zaman nuklear, kemudahan untuk manusia dan alam itu tetap wujud maka tuhan mengaturkan sesuatu untuk dijadikan pegangan manusia itu dan ia sesuatu yang sempurna.
Although now is the atomic age, nuclear age, the facility for humans and nature still exist, so God created something as guidance for humans, and it is something perfect.

Malah, tabiat manusia pun pemimpin dalam rumah tangga itu ialah lelaki. Bangsa apa pun sejak zaman lampau, malah mereka yang tinggal dalam hutan atau gua pun, masih mengekalkan perkara ini. Itu sudah tabiat manusia.
Furthermore, nature dictates that the head of the household is male. No matter what race, since time immemorial, in fact even those that live in the jungle or in caves retain this characteristic. It is human nature.

Islam liberal menghalalkan perkahwinan sejenis, manusia normal dan waras mana yang boleh menerimanya kerana perkahwinan itu tetap bertujuan menyambung kesinambungan zuriat manusia. Itu tujuan asas perkahwinan.
Liberal Islam allows same-sex marriage; which normal and sane human can accept it, since the purpose of marriage is for the continuation of human progeny. This is the main purpose of marriage.

Jika perkahwinan sejenis dibenarkan, tiada lagi keturunan manusia (pada masa depan). Tetapi, oleh kerana mereka mahu menerima budaya moden, mereka sanggup mengorbankan akal, fikiran dan nafsu asasi, malah menjual agama untuk kepentingan dunia yang sedikit.
If same-sex marriage is allowed, there will no longer be humans (in the future). But, because they want to accept modern culture, they are willing to sacrifice intelligence, rationality, and basic instinct, plus selling away religion for the sake of limited worldly importance.

Adakah bilangan pengikut fahaman ini ramai di Malaysia.
Is the number of followers of this view in Malaysia large.
Bilangan sebenar sukar dinyatakan kerana mereka tidak berpersatuan. Tetapi kita beranggapan walaupun mereka tidak menganggotai persatuan itu, mereka banyak mendapat sokongan kerana golongan menerima fahaman ini boleh dikategorikan sebagai intelektual.
The actual number is dificult to estimate, since they are not organized. But we think that although they are not members of this organization, they get a lot of support because those that accept this philosophy can be categorized as intellectuals.

Golongan profesional tertentu pandai bercakap dan menulis sedangkan ulama dan golongan yang memperjuangkan Islam di negara ini tidak begitu profesional serta tidak cenderung dalam menulis menyebabkan tulisan mereka jarang kita lihat untuk menangkis fahaman ini.
Certain professionals are adept at talking and writing, whereas the ulamas and those that fight for Islam in this country are not so professional, and are not keen writers; whatever writings refuting this philosophy are rarely seen.

Khususnya serangan ini dibuat dalam bahasa Inggeris, sekali gus mempengaruhi golongan berpengetahuan dalam bahasa Inggeris sedangkan ulama kita kurang sangat tahu bahasa Inggeris serta kurang membuat kajian pergerakan liberal dari segi akar umbinya.
Specifically, the attacks are made in English, and therefore influence those who know English, whereas our ulamas do not know English very well, plus haven't thoroughly researched the roots of the liberal movement.

Oleh itu, rahsia penganut fahaman ini sukar diketahui dan hujahnya tidak ditangkis. Ini kekurangan kepada pejuang Islam dan mereka mengambil kesempatan daripada kekurangan ini.
Therefore this philosophy's secrets are difficult to ascertain, and their arguments not countered. This is a weakness of those that fight for Islam, and they (the liberals) take advantage of this deficiency.

Malah, mereka bergabung dengan (sesetengah pihak) agama lain yang sememangnya juga tidak ingin melihat kekuatan Islam tegak di Malaysia. Masalah lain pula ialah gerakan ini dipelopori golongan berpendidikan tinggi secara Barat dan mempunyai kedudukan tinggi dalam masyarakat. Ini agak sulit sedikit berbeza dengan golongan Ayah Pin.
Furthermore, they [the liberals] collaborate with (some parties from) other religions, that naturally do not want Islam to grow strong in Malaysia. Other problems include the fact that this movement comprises of the highly Western-educated, and are highly placed in society. This makes it difficult, compared to followers of Ayah Pin.

Adakah mereka dibantu atau mendapat sokongan luar.
Are they helped by or receive support from external sources.
Saya difahamkan mereka mendapat sokongan luar. Di Indonesia, mereka mendapat imuniti undang-undang iaitu ada pihak tertentu dari luar yang menghalang tindakan undang-undang dikenakan sedangkan ada peruntukan di Indonesia yang boleh mengenakan tindakan terhadap Presiden negara itu jika melakukan kesalahan.
I have been made to understand that they do. In Indonesia, they enjoy imunity from the law, that is, there are certain external parties that prevent carriage of justice, even though there are provisions in Indonesia that allow even action against the President of the country if a crime has been committed.

Setakat ini, adakah fahaman ini sudah mula tersebar di kalangan pelajar terutama di institut pengajian tinggi (IPT).
Up to now, has this philosophy started to spread to students, particularly in institutes of higher learning.
Ya, sekarang mereka cuba meluaskan pengaruh pada peringkat universiti dan golongan intelektual. Itu yang sudah berlaku di Indonesia dengan sasaran mereka ialah pensyarah pengajian Islam.
Yes, they are trying to expand their influence to the university level and to intellectuals. In Indonesia this has already happened, with their targets being Islamic Studies lecturers.

Sebab itu kita melihat (di Indonesia) golongan memperjuangkan liberalisme dan pluralisme agama adalah intelektual Islam berkelulusan agama dengan menyatakan ini satu pendapat, falsafah dan pemikiran baru berbentuk ilmiah diceduk daripada pendapat sarjana terdahulu.
That is why (in Indonesia) we see that those championing liberalism and religious pluralism are Islamic intellectuals, with religious academic qualifications, saying that this is an opinion, philosophy, and academic thought, synthesized from older thinkers.

Sedangkan firman Allah ialah orang beriman dan beramal soleh perlu beriman dengan Allah dan Rasul. Beriman dengan Allah ialah mempercayai kandungan al-Quran yang didatangkan menerusi Rasul.
Whereas God’s proclamation is that a believer and doer of good deeds must have faith in God and His messenger. Faith in God is believing the contents of the Quran, that was revealed through his Messenger.

Tetapi, mereka memperkecilkan (peranan) Rasul. Firman Allah: “Allah mengurniakan kepada orang mukmin seorang rasul daripada kalangan mereka sendiri (manusia) yang membacakan ayat-ayat tuhan dengan terang dan dia mengajarkan kandungan al-Quran dan ilmu lainnya sedangkan sebelum itu mereka orang yang tidak mengetahuinya.”
But they minimize the Messenger’s role. God says: “GOD has blessed the believers by raising in their midst a messenger from among them, to recite for them His revelations, and to purify them, and to teach them the scripture and wisdom. Before this, they had gone totally astray.”

Ayat ini menjelaskan Rasul saja yang berhak mentafsirkan al-Quran kerana Baginda diajar dengan fikiran cukup kuat oleh Jibril mengenai maksud dalam kitab suci itu. Maka orang menafsirkan al-Quran hanya dengan fikirannya semata-mata, adalah tergolong sebagai ahli neraka.
This verse explains that only the Mesenger has the right to translate the Quran because he was instructed with a strong mind by Gabriel as to the meaning in this holy book. Therefore, those that translate the Quran using only their intellect, are included in the group destined for hell.

Mungkin kewujudan golongan ini berpunca daripada kelemahan sistem pentadbiran Islam di negara ini, khususnya Mahkamah Syariah yang dikatakan banyak mendiskriminasi wanita.
Could it be that the existence of this group stems from the weakness in the system of Islamic administration in this country, specifically the Syariah Court, that has been said to practice a lot of discrimination against women.
Sistem pentadbiran agama Islam di negara ini tidak pernah menekan wanita. Mahkamah Syariah sebenarnya membela orang Islam khususnya wanita Islam dengan membicarakan soal nafkah, hak harta sepencarian dan sebagainya dan wujud untuk melahirkan keluarga yang sempurna dan bahagia.
The system of Islamic administration is this country has never oppressed women. The Syariah Court actually defends the Muslims, particularly Muslim women, by dealing with issues such as sustenance, rights over shared income, etc., and exists to produce perfect and happy families.

Mungkin wujud kecuaian dalam pelaksanaannya yang kelihatan seperti satu kelemahan. Tetapi, kelemahan ini tidak boleh dijadikan alasan mengatakan agama Islam sebagai tidak sempurna.
Perhaps there exist oversights in implementation, that are seen as weaknesses. But these weaknesses cannot be used as an excuse to say that Islam is not perfect.

Pada masa sama, undang-undang sivil juga khususnya di Barat lebih banyak kelemahannya tetapi kerana mereka dianggap superior ia tidak diperkatakan. Sebahagian daripadanya adalah sikap inferiority complex (di kalangan orang Islam sendiri).
At the same time, civil laws, particularly in the West have even more weaknesses. But because these are seen as superior, it (the weaknesses) is never mentioned. This is partly due to an inferiority complex (among Muslims themselves).

Adakah fahaman ini sebenarnya hanya satu bentuk perbezaan pendapat dalam Islam saja.
Is this view, in fact, merely a form of difference of opinion within Islam?
Fahaman ini bukan setakat perbezaan pendapat, tetapi amat bertentangan dengan Islam dan boleh menjurus kepada syirik dan mungkin kepada murtad.
This view is not just difference of opinion, but is very much against Islam and can lead one to idolatory, and possibly to apostacy.

Dalam fahaman pluralisme jika kita mengatakan semua agama adalah sama, jadi tidak perlu menganut Islam, apa guna Tuhan memberi amaran yang banyak dalam al-Quran mengenai perbuatan orang kufur dan menolak peringatan Tuhan.
In pluralism, if we say that all religions are the same, and therefore don’t need to embrace Islam, what use would there have been for God to issue so many warnings in the Quran about those that oppose Him and reject observing Him.

Tidakkah ini akan menunjukkan seolah-olah orang Islam dan agamanya tidak memiliki sifat toleransi kerana tidak mahu menerima fahaman orang lain.
Doesn’t this give the impression that Muslims and their religion do not possess characteristics of tolerance because it doesn't not accept the opinion of others
Kita bukan tidak mahu terima fahaman orang lain, tetapi setiap benda yang menggugat akidah dan menafikan syariat, kita tidak boleh terima. Dalam Islam, ada perkara sudah qat'ie (ditetapkan) seperti sifat Tuhan yang kita tidak boleh persoalkan. Begitu juga dalam hukum syarak dan ibadat puasa, solat dan mengucap dua kali syahadah.
It is not that we don’t accept the opinions/beliefs of others, but every single thing that jeopardizes faith, and denies God’s law, we cannot accept. In Islam, there are things that are certain/fixed, like the characteristics of God, that we cannot question. The same goes for God’s laws, and fasting, prayer and the declaration of faith.

Walaupun ada pelbagai mazhab dalam Islam, perkara pokok seperti solat lima waktu, mengucap dua kalimah syahadah dan menghadap kiblat ketika bersolat, tidak pernah dipersoalkan.
Although there are numerous sects in Islam, the foundations of faith, such as the five daily prayers, declaration of faith, and the direction of prayer, have never been questioned. .

Jadi, jika mengubah yang qat'ie ia boleh menjadi murtad sehingga sekarang yang tidak pandai cakap Arab pun membuat kenyataan seolah-olah dia lebih pandai daripada Rasul.
If those certain/unchangeable elements are altered it could lead to apostacy; at present, even those that cannot speak Arabic make statements as if they are more clever than the Messenger.

Tetapi, mungkin fahaman mereka yang agak liberal tetapi pada masa sama masih mengaku dan melakukan perkara asas dalam Islam seperti solat, puasa.
But perhaps their understanding is liberal, but at the same time profess the foundations in Islam, such as prayer and fasting.

Kita perlu melihat liberal dalam bentuk yang bagaimana. Jika sudah menyentuh soal akidah, itu tidak boleh dipanggil liberal (dalam Islam) tetapi sudah menyimpang.
We have to look at what form this liberalism manifests. If it touches on the question of belief, then it cannot be considered liberal (in Islam), but has diverged.

Ia berbeza liberal dari segi hukum yang khilaf seperti isu batal air sembahyang. Bagi Mazhab Hanafi, lelaki sentuh wanita tak batal, Mazhab Shafie kata batal, Mazhab Maliki kata jika sentuh dengan syahwat batal.
It’s different from debatable laws, such as the nulling of ablution. For the Hanafi sect, man touching woman does not nullify ablution. The Shafie sect says it does, while the Maliki sect states that it is nullified, if the touch is lustful.

Dalam keadaan seperti ini boleh liberal seperti ketika mengerjakan tawaf di Baitullah, saya katakan boleh ambil logik mazhab Hanafi. Cuma perlu tahu juga apa nasnya (bagi membenarkannya), itu saja masalahnya. Tetapi, tidak kita boleh khilaf seperti solat Jumaat ditukar kepada Ahad kerana ia hari cuti umum atau wanita menjadi imam untuk lelaki dan wanita. Perkara ini dilarang kerana ia sudah jadi itjimak ulama.
In such circumstances, its alright to be liberal; for instance while performing the tawaf in Baitullah (in Mecca), I could adopt the logic of the Hanafi sect, whereby the only problem is knowing why we can or cannot [this bit may not have been translated accurately]. But we cannot change things such as moving the Friday congregational prayers to Sunday because it is a public holiday, or women leading men and women in prayer. These changes are not allowed because they have become the ulama’s conjunction [accepted ruling].

Kita tidak boleh mengubah semata-mata untuk mewujudkan hak persamaan. Islam tidak pernah mendiskriminasi wanita. Islam sudah mengatur hak wanita dan hak lelaki.
We cannot change for the sake of equality. Islam has never discriminated against women. Islam has ordained womens rights and mens rights.

Islam tidak melarang wanita bekerja tetapi biarlah pekerjaan sesuai dengan wanita.
Islam does not prohibit women from working, but the work must be suitable for women.

Adakah fahaman ini sebenarnya hanya lanjutan daripada pelbagai fahaman yang wujud dari zaman silam seperti muktazilah, jabariah dan khawarij.
Is this view simply an extension from views that have existed from a long time ago, such as muktazilah, jabariah and khawarij
Fahaman seperti khawarij dan syiah lebih berbentuk politik kerana tidak mahu menerima arahan pemerintah ketika itu. Tetapi, kita tidak menafikan ada mazhab dalam Syiah yang terkeluar dalam akidah dan tidak boleh diterima.
The philosophies like khawarij and syiah are more political, since there was an unwillingness to obey the rulers at that time. But we cannot deny that there are some sects within the Syiahs whose beliefs fall outside the Islamic faith and therefore cannot be accepted.

Dalam Sunnah Wal Jamaah, walaupun khilaf dari segi fahaman syariat, ia masih tidak terkeluar daripada Islam, hanya berbeza daripada masalah furuk (cabang kecil) dan tidak khilaf dari segi masalah usul (utama).
In Sunnah Wal Jamaah, although debatable from an established code point of view, does not stray from Islam; it is merely a debate on minor differences, and not on the key elements.

Justeru, Datuk Seri menganggap fahaman liberalisme dan pluralisme ini bukan cabang daripada perbezaan pendapat dalam Islam.
Therefore, Datuk Seri's view is that liberalism and pluralism are not extensions of differing views in Islam
Fahaman ini sebenarnya daripada Yahudi kerana daripada dulu lagi mereka memang berniat untuk menyesatkan orang Islam.
These views are actually from the Jews, because since the beginning their intention has been to lead the Muslims astray

Bagaimana perkembangan fahaman ini di Malaysia, adakah ia kelihatan semakin berbahaya kepada akidah Islam.
How about the propogation of this view in Malaysia, is it seen to be more and more dangerous to the Islamic faith

Di Malaysia, bibit-bibitnya sudah kelihatan seperti menafikan azab kubur, hukum aurat dan sebagainya. Ini bibit liberalisme dan ia cukup berbahaya apatah lagi dalam masyarakat ketika ini apabila pelajaran agama tidak lagi dianggap penting, sebaliknya hanya untuk lulus peperiksaan akibat pemisahan pelajaran agama dengan akademik.
In Malaysia, its seeds are starting to emerge, such as denying [the existence of] retribution in purgatory, laws concerning "aurat", and so forth. These are seeds of liberalism and are dangerous, what more in present society, where the study of religion is no longer considered important, merely to pass examinations, due to separation of religious studies and academics.

Fahaman agama semakin tipis akibat dijajah dan dinafikan hak pendidikan selama 480 tahun oleh penjajah. Ketika penjajahan, penjajah hanya mendirikan sekolah mubaligh kristian, jadi orang Islam tidak mahu pergi ke sekolah itu. Penjajah kemudian bagi alasan orang Melayu sendiri tidak mahu menerima pendidikan. Ini semua strategi untuk melemahkan orang Islam.
Religious understanding grows thin, due to colonization and the denial of the right to education for 480 years by the colonialists. During colonialization, the colonialists only established christian missionary schools, and therefore Muslims refused to attend them. The colonialists then used this as an excuse to say that the Malays themselves refused to be educated. These were all strategies to weaken the Muslims.

Pada masa sama, fikiran kita masih beku, sejak penjajahan sehingga sekarang saya boleh katakan hanya 10 peratus orang Melayu Islam yang capai tahap profesionalisme sebenar. Kita masih terus dengan khayalan ibarat pepatah ‘menang sorak kampung tergadai’ kita lupa.
At the same time, our mindset is backward, since the time of colonization, and until now, I can safely say only 10 percent of Malay Muslims have achieved the level of true professionalism. We continue to believe the illusion, as illustrated by "triumphing on cheers, but your home is pawned away" - we forget.

Oleh itu, apa tindakan boleh dilakukan untuk mengekang fahaman ini daripada merebak.
So, what action can be taken to prevent the spread of this view
Kita perlu beri kesedaran. Kita tidak boleh membanterasnya tanpa beri kesedaran, khususnya di kalangan ulama dan guru agama. Jika mereka (ulama dan guru agama) sendiri tidak faham, bagaimana mahu berhadapan dengan golongan ini dan mungkin mereka sendiri pula akan terpengaruh.
We need consciousness. We cannot overcome it without providing consciousness, particularly with the community of ulama and religious teachers. If they (ulama and religious teachers) themselves don't understand, how can they face these people (the liberals) and maybe they themselves will be influenced.

Bila kami mengadakan seminar hal ini baru-baru ini, ia semata-mata untuk mendedahkan perkara ini kerana tidak mahu ia menjadi parah seperti di Indonesia sehingga universiti Islam sudah kekurangan pelajar, hanya tinggal tujuh atau lapan orang mengikuti pengajian syariah.
When we conducted a seminar on this recently, it was merely to highlight its existence so that it doesn't become serious as in Indonesia, to the point that Islamic universities have shortage of students, only seven or eight people taking courses in Islamic law studies.

Di Malaysia yang mempunyai penduduk berbilang kaum dan agama, jika orang Melayu Islam bergaduh dalam pelbagai isu (akibat perbuatan golongan liberalisme dan pluralisme), bagaimana Islam mahu dipertahankan.
In Malaysia, which is multi-cultural and multi-religious, if the Malay Muslims argue amongst themselves on various issues (due to the actions of liberals and pluralists), how is Islam to be defended.

Tidakkah Datuk Seri berhasrat mengadakan dialog dengan golongan ini untuk menyedarkan mereka.
Doesn't Datuk Seri wish to hold dialogs with these people to make them realize.
Saya memang mencadangkan dialog dengan mereka dengan pembabitan Jabatan Kemajuan Islam (Jakim), Jabatan Agama negeri dan Jabatan Mufti setiap negeri.
Indeed, I have suggested dialog with them, with the involvement of JAKIM, state religions departments, and each state Mufti office.

Adakah Datuk Seri yakin menerusi dialog ini mereka boleh berubah atau masih tetap mempertahankan fahaman dianuti.
Is Datuk Seri confident that through dialog they can be changed, or will still hold on to their views
Kita tidak boleh memaksa mereka menerima (apa yang kita minta) kerana ini fikiran manusia. Terpulang kepada mereka memilih jalan keluar, sesat daripada Islam atau jalan kebenaran. Kalau mereka memilih jalan sesat, ada firman Allah “Apabila mereka memalingkan diri daripada kebenaran, maka Allah akan memalingkan hati mereka, dan Allah tidak akan memberi petunjuk kepada golongan yang fasik.”
We cannot force them to accept our views because this is human thought. It is up to them to choose a way out, stray away from Islam, or return to the path of righteousness. There is a decree from God saying, "When they deviated from truth, God will diviate their hearts, for God does not guide the wicked people" [see note below]

Ini bermakna kalau mereka pilih jalan fasik, tuhan tidak mengatakan jalan itu benar, walaupun seluruh manusia mengatakannya begitu.
This means if they follow the path of wickedness, God does not say that the path is correct, although all of mankind may say so.

Bagaimana jika mereka meneruskan usaha menyebarkan fahaman kepada orang ramai.
What if they continue the effort in spreading their view to the public
Liberalisme dan pluralisme ini boleh ditafsirkan sebagai ajaran sesat. Jika dikategorikan sebagai ajaran sesat mengikut Enakmen Jenayah Syariah, mereka boleh dikenakan tindakan jika menghasut orang ramai sama ada secara penulisan atau menggunakan pendekatan pengajaran dan perkumpulan.
Liberalism and pluralism can be construed as teachings of apostacy. If categorized as apostacy according to the Syariah Crime Enactment, they may be charged if they incite the public, either through writing or through teaching and forming groups.

Ketika ini, sudah ada fatwa dikeluarkan menyatakan mereka sebagai ajaran sesat.
At this point has a religious edict been issued stating them as teachings of apostacy
Setakat ini, hanya pendapat dan belum ada fatwa secara rasmi mengatakan mereka sebagai ajaran sesat.
At this point, it is only an opinion, and there is no official religious edict stating them as teachings of apostacy

Ia dinyatakan pada Muzakarah Ulama 2006 di Ipoh Selasa lalu, dalam satu daripada resolusinya ialah fahaman liberalisme dan pluralisme ini adalah ajaran sesat.
This was metioned at the Ulama Conference 2006 in Ipoh last Tuesday, in one of the resolutions, stating that liberalism and pluralism are teachings of apostacy.

Seminar itu dihadiri Pengarah Jabatan Agama Islam Negeri atau wakilnya, intelektual Islam; Mufti Kelantan, Sabah, Johor, Kedah serta wakil Mufti bagi negeri lain serta pertubuhan bukan kerajaan (NGO) Islam.
This seminar was attended by State Islamc Department directors or their representatives, Islamic intellectuals, Muftis from Kelantan, Sabah, Johor, Kedah, plus representatives of Muftis from other states, and Islamic NGOs.

Selain penulisan, difahamkan golongan ini juga menggunakan kaedah internet untuk menyampaikan fahaman mereka.
Besides through writings, it is understood that they also use the Internet to promote their views
Kita sendiri tiada laman web khusus menentang mereka. Saya cadangkan setiap Jabatan Agama dan Mufti mengadakan laman web. Malangnya di Jabatan Mufti ini, kita tidak mempunyai kakitangan mencukupi dan golongan profesional yang mahir dalam penyelidikan.
We ourselves do not have specific websites to counter them. I suggest that each state religious department and Mufti set up web pages. Unfortunately, in this Mufti Department, we do not have sufficient staff and professionals that are adept at research.

Jabatan Mufti ini mengikut skim penjawatan dalam kerajaan yang mempunyai kategorinya sendiri.
This Mufti Department follows the governmental posting scheme that has its own categorization.

Justeru, saya harap NGO Islam yang mempunyai golongan profesional dan pakar dapat membantu.
Hence, I hope that Islamic NGOs that have professionals and experts can help.

Adakah NGO Islam menyedari hal ini.
Are the Islamic NGOs aware of this.
Alhamdulillah, NGO Islam menyedari hal ini. Di Perak baru-baru ini, 45 NGO Islam mengadakan perhimpunan menyatakan sokongan menentang fahaman ini.
Thank God, the Islamic NGOs are aware. Recently in Perak, 45 Islamic NGOs had a meeting stating their support in countering this view.

Pada Muzakarah Ulama 2006 lalu, terdapat 23 resolusi menyentuh isu liberalisme dan pluralisme ini, apa tindakan selanjutnya.
During the recent Ulama Muzakarah (Conference) 2006, there were 23 resolutions pertaining to liberalism and pluralism, what would be the action following this.
Semua resolusi ini akan diperhalusi dan diperbaiki dari segi bahasanya dan apabila siap akan diserahkan kepada Sultan Perak, kerajaan negeri, semua Jabatan Agama Islam negeri dan kerajaan pusat.
All the resolutions will be fine tuned and corrected from a language standpoint, and when ready, will be presented to the Sultan of Perak, the state government, all the State Religious Departments, and the Federal Government.

Tindakan ini dilakukan untuk memberi ingatan kepada pimpinan kerajaan mengenai kedudukan Islam sebagai agama rasmi dalam Perlembagaan Persekutuan.
This is to remind government leadership of the status of Islam as the official religion in the Federal Constitution.

Justeru, kerajaan perlu memantau agar klausa ini tidak diusik atau dikacau terutama orang bukan Islam. Mereka (bukan Islam) boleh mengamalkan agama mereka, memajukan diri dengan agama mereka tetapi tidak berhak campur tangan dalam isu agama Islam.
Hence, the government needs to monitor this clause to ensure that it is not altered or touched, particularly by non-Muslims. They (the non-Muslims) can follow their own religions, progress themselves with their own religions, but they do not have the right to interfere in issues pertaining to Islam.

Glossary of Terms
mushaf - collection of Quranic verses written on parchment; generally referring to the compilation of the Quran into the text we know today, including the order-determination of surah (chapter) and verse, done during the time of Caliph Uthman ibn Affan (the third guided Caliph).

tawaf - the ritual of circumambulating the Ka'abah during Hajj and Umrah

muktazilah, jabariah and khawarij - three differing mazhab or sects (some prefer to call it schools of thought). Information of sectarian development in Islam can be found here.

Quranic References
There are two verses from the Quran partially quoted in this interview. Although not explicitly referenced by chapter and verse, the following are most likely the verses the Mufti refers to. The translation used here is the Yusuf Ali version.

First reference - from Surah 2 (Al-Baqarah), verse 151:
"A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you a Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge."

Second reference - from Surah 61 (Al-Suff), verse 5:
"And remember, Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you?" Then when they went wrong, Allah let their hearts go wrong. For Allah guides not those who are rebellious transgressors."
("Rebellious Transgressors" is also translated as "the wicked" in some translations)